Comments on: The Super Adorable Liu Ba (translation)

By: Lara

Lara — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:33:36 +0000

OK, so Bei/Ba’s policy enriches the thieving soldiers with copper money (melted down from ordinance? Shields? What?) Bei gets the goods at a set price, his men get small amounts of high-denomination copper coinage, and the locals are still screwed/impoverished, but at least there’s some sort of currency and price stability established – maybe that’s what helped out long term: the locals could sell food or shelter for actual coins. Or maybe all the locals just left, or died.

It seems that the use of large-denomination copper coins allowed Bei to use very little metal to acquire lots of stuff. What kind of stuff was it? Bolts of silk, food, weapons? Maybe things he could award to those loyal to him….

By: xgz

xgz — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:23:39 +0000

Lara,
Liu Ba’s solution was to print the money and force it upon the market. Bei recovered the goods buy paying for the stolen goods with the newly minted copper coins that were purposely printed with big denominations. And the price for the goods was set by decree. It’s not clear what the long term consequences were of these policies, but at least Bei recovered the goods. That’s what he asked Liu Ba for help for, and that’s the help he got. I wonder whether Liu Ba had other intentions with these suggestions.

By: Lara

Lara — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:57:35 +0000

Xgz,
Thanks for that explanation! I had thought that Ba simply advised Bei to create a currency and controlled market, and that in conditions thus stabilized, merchants and peasants spent enough to fill the coffers with tax revenue. But please spell it out for me (is your field economics?):

If Bei was bankrupt and Chengdu’s treasury was empty, and if all the goods had been stolen by Bei’s soldiers, how did the coffers fill up? I.e., what did Bei & Co. sell to extract money? Or how did they get their thieving men to contribute? Did the thieves sell to the now-indigent (raped, murdered, dispersed) population of Chengdu? And if so, how did that fill Bei’s coffers?

By: xgz

xgz — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:52:10 +0000

This part of the text is very strange:
“When Liu Bei occuppied Yizhou, the treasury was completely empty, and Bei was very worried. Liu Ba said: “No big deal, three little steps should take care of it: first, circulate copper coins of 100 Qian denomination; second, enforce consistent consumer prices all over the country; third, implement a government-controlled trade system for certain goods.” This was no empty boast, either. In a few short months after these policies took effect, the treasury was filled.”
But here is another short blurb about Liu Ba on a tourism website (the site is gone and I got this from Google cache). It substantially copies from the Chinese text above (or is it the other way around?). However it does contain a little more detail on the situation described in the quoted text above.
刘巴，字子彻，汉末蒸阳（今衡阳县）人。出身官宦家庭，少以胆识才华闻名。荆州刺史刘表多次要提拔他，并举荐为“茂才”。祖父刘曜，苍梧太守。父刘祥，江夏太守、荡寇将军。公元l90年，刘巴祸避零陵，为郡主记主薄。公元208年，曹操南下荆州，刘巴北上投奔曹操。赤壁战后，奉曹操之命回江南招降。刘备深恨刘巴。诸葛亮劝刘巴留下，刘巴不从。因无法复命曹操，刘巴便南下交州，改姓张，辗转进入益州，投刘璋麾下。公元211年，刘备取益州，刘巴归附备，为左将军西曹掾。刘备称帝的第二年，刘巴病逝。刘巴是三国时期第一流的才智之士，每当重大事件，他都能以敏锐的政治眼光作出准确的判断。早在跟随刘璋时，他就曾谏阻刘璋不要引刘备入蜀。这在当时对刘璋来说不失为良言。但刘璋昏聩，终致亡。随刘备后，刘巴也多有奇策良谋。刘备攻成都时，为鼓励士气，曾许诺城破之日不过问府库财物。所以成都城破，刘璋数年的积蓄被士卒一扫而光。后来，军用乏绝，刘备问计于刘巴。刘巴建议赶铸面值百文的大钱，把货物定出价格，开放市场。结果，那些被士卒抢走的财物很快就回收了。诸葛亮曾称赞说：“运筹策于帷幄之中，吾不如子彻远矣。”(《三国志．蜀书．刘巴传》裴松之注)同时，刘巴也是个性格化的人物。他恃才傲物，轻视张飞。公元221年，刘备议称帝，刘巴竭力劝阻。这也是他在蜀汉没能有更多建树的原因之一。
Now we know why the treasury was completely empty. When Liu Bei’s army was attacking Chengdu, he promised the soldiers that once the city was taken, there would be no accounting of money and goods in the city. So once the city was breached, everything was taken by the soldiers. Liu Bei didn’t have any supplies so he asked help from Liu Ba. Liu Ba’s suggestion was to make big denomination coins, set the price for the stolen goods, and open the market. Very quickly they recovered the goods taken by the soldiers. This definitely took only days rather than months.